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> Trouble starting and cutting out at high revs -- resolved, FZR600 Not starting - resolved
jonny2hats
post Jun 14 2010, 04:34 PM
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Hi guys

I have recently acquired an '89 FZR 600 as a project.

I am having trouble starting it.

It will crank, there is fuel in the carbs and the pump is working. I also have a spark at the plugs and the battery has a sufficient charge. Compression is ok and the plugs are relatively new but are quite sooty.

The bike was running fine just a few days ago, then it would start but misfire and now it will just turn over and over.

What i did notice is that the Voltage Regulator was pretty hot, and am wondering if a bad earth could have taken out the CDI.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

This post has been edited by jonny2hats: Jul 4 2010, 11:03 AM
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rotortech
post Jun 14 2010, 05:48 PM
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You seem to have the ingredients - spark, fuel and air. Are you trying to start it with the airbox removed? If so, it is too lean. Put the air box back on. (just a wild guess). Did you leave the petcock on overnight and overfill the carb bowls. That would make it slobbery rich. It also will leak fuel into your crankcase. Check to see if the oil level is too high. These bikes are not equipped with a solenoid fuel shutoff valve and you must close the petcock when you shut off the engine. Something changed to mess this up so I am just brainstorming here. Did you do any other work or change anything else?

Let us know how it is going and we will try to help.

Smarter people please add whatever you have here.


--------------------
Read this first then ask questions:
CPR for the FZR

Rotortech
Indianapolis

1994 Yamaha FZR 600 Purchased as project bike Jan 2010
Finished 10 July 2010 My Build Thread with pictures here.
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apsolus
post Jun 14 2010, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (rotortech @ Jun 14 2010, 06:48 PM) *
You seem to have the ingredients - spark, fuel and air. Are you trying to start it with the airbox removed? If so, it is too lean. Put the air box back on. (just a wild guess). Did you leave the petcock on overnight and overfill the carb bowls. That would make it slobbery rich. It also will leak fuel into your crankcase. Check to see if the oil level is too high. These bikes are not equipped with a solenoid fuel shutoff valve and you must close the petcock when you shut off the engine. Something changed to mess this up so I am just brainstorming here. Did you do any other work or change anything else?

Let us know how it is going and we will try to help.

Smarter people please add whatever you have here.

clean the plugs and try again, it might be running rich. heres a trick for you. grab hold of a buddies car get up to about 20 mph and dump the clutch. i used to have to do it when it got really cold, my 89 had all 16 bent valves!


--------------------
have:
88 yamaha fzr 1000
87 honda super magna 700
08 yamaha star 250

had:
02 yamaha vstar 650
89 yamaha fzr 600
02 kawasaki ninja 600
83 yamaha midnight maxim 750
99 suzuki gz 250
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kiki231
post Jun 16 2010, 08:39 AM
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Do you know if the emulsion tubes were replaced on the bike?
there are two probs that these bikes are known for that might cause this -- soft emulsion tubes that wear on the down stream side of the needles and cause excessive rich running at low rpm -- this can be remedied by replacing the tubes with Factory Pro's nickel plated jobbies (mine were bad after 25000 miles) -- they are 115 bucks -- a good indicator that this is the problem is that the bike can start cold with little or no choke, but wont start with the choke-- it will just turn over and over, or, when idling, if you blip the throttle, the engine revs up, then right back down, and almost stumbles before going back up to normal idling speed. -- this is a sign of too rich a mixture-- ideally, the bike revs up, and then quickly returns to idle. If the bike maintains hi rpm after you let go the throttle for a few moments, it is too lean-- which means your prob could be the second known prob

bad intake valves

although mine was fine , apparently there are some owners that have suffered from the valves cupping and sinking upward to the cam because of too soft material. The result is reduced compression, which immediately causes a bad start symptom that goes away once warm.
here is an article on it

http://www.fzrarchives.com/fzr600/faqs/faqs.html

you said compression was fine-- what was it blowing? (psi?)
have you tried a leakdown tester?

And finally -- check the specs on your spark -- run your multimeter thru your coils (battery unhooked) and read for the resistance. If thats fine, using a spray bottle full of water, spray your plug wires after you get it idling normally -- if the bike stumbles, throw on some new wires -- they are cheap!

good luck !

This post has been edited by kiki231: Jun 16 2010, 08:46 AM


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jonny2hats
post Jun 26 2010, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (kiki231 @ Jun 16 2010, 03:39 PM) *
Do you know if the emulsion tubes were replaced on the bike?
there are two probs that these bikes are known for that might cause this -- soft emulsion tubes that wear on the down stream side of the needles and cause excessive rich running at low rpm -- this can be remedied by replacing the tubes with Factory Pro's nickel plated jobbies (mine were bad after 25000 miles) -- they are 115 bucks -- a good indicator that this is the problem is that the bike can start cold with little or no choke, but wont start with the choke-- it will just turn over and over, or, when idling, if you blip the throttle, the engine revs up, then right back down, and almost stumbles before going back up to normal idling speed. -- this is a sign of too rich a mixture-- ideally, the bike revs up, and then quickly returns to idle. If the bike maintains hi rpm after you let go the throttle for a few moments, it is too lean-- which means your prob could be the second known prob

bad intake valves

although mine was fine , apparently there are some owners that have suffered from the valves cupping and sinking upward to the cam because of too soft material. The result is reduced compression, which immediately causes a bad start symptom that goes away once warm.
here is an article on it

http://www.fzrarchives.com/fzr600/faqs/faqs.html

you said compression was fine-- what was it blowing? (psi?)
have you tried a leakdown tester?

And finally -- check the specs on your spark -- run your multimeter thru your coils (battery unhooked) and read for the resistance. If thats fine, using a spray bottle full of water, spray your plug wires after you get it idling normally -- if the bike stumbles, throw on some new wires -- they are cheap!

good luck !



Hi

Sorry for delay, ive been away from home. Thanks for the replys.

I have now cleaned the carbs and changed the plugs and the bike is now starting and running ok, until while at high revs all of a sudden it dies and cuts out.

I have checked that the voltage on the battery is over 12.

I have checked the resistance on the LT side of the coils and it read 2.3 ohms for both and the HT side read 190K ohms (1&4) and 160k ohms (2&3). These readings were taken using a multimeter on the setting for 200Kohms.

Again any help would be appreciated.
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jonny2hats
post Jun 26 2010, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (jonny2hats @ Jun 26 2010, 05:16 PM) *
Hi

Sorry for delay, ive been away from home. Thanks for the replys.

I have now cleaned the carbs and changed the plugs and the bike is now starting and running ok, until while at high revs all of a sudden it dies and cuts out.

I have checked that the voltage on the battery is over 12.

I have checked the resistance on the LT side of the coils and it read 2.3 ohms for both and the HT side read 190K ohms (1&4) and 160k ohms (2&3). These readings were taken using a multimeter on the setting for 200Kohms.

Again any help would be appreciated.


Oh and my wires seem to be permanently connect to the coils.
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rotortech
post Jun 26 2010, 10:41 AM
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Bike is running = good.

Now, get the bike running and see if all four pipes are equally hot. You don't need to measure it, just touch each one quickly. You may notice the difference at idle. If they seem the same at idle go ride until it is warmed up a bit. Run it up in rpm as much as you can. Stop and check the pipes. If 1 & 4 are different than 2 & 3 then you have isolated the problem to the ignition coils. you may be getting ignition that is good enough to idle but is intermittent at higher rpm. At that point it could be a coil, a broken wire or bad spark plug wires.

If the pipes seem equally hot then you could have a carb problem. You need to do some checking to help you see if you are rich or lean. With the bike running can you rev to high rpm cold but not hot? That would indicate that it is too rich. Does it run better or to higher rpm hot. That would indicate that it is too lean. So when running the bike make mental note of any differences between hot and cold operation for idle, mid-range, wide open throttle to high rpm.

Another forum member recently had similar headaches with his bike. He was advised to check the filter and the airbox and found NO FILTER ELEMENT. The PO was a bit negligent there. His bike ran pretty good once he got the filter installed. You may have to inspect the air box for leaks and the filter might be absent or torn up (Too lean) or the filter may be clogged with dirt and leaves (too rich). Don't assume that there is a good filter inside the air box. Take a look.

If the engine is running well but you just can not get it to accelerate beyond 5 or 6K, then you may have a fuel filter problem. In that case you probably also have crap in the bottom of the tank. Time to clean out the tank and replace the fuel filter. This may cause the bike to rev up some but then lean out and falter. It won't be a clean rpm limit each time.


--------------------
Read this first then ask questions:
CPR for the FZR

Rotortech
Indianapolis

1994 Yamaha FZR 600 Purchased as project bike Jan 2010
Finished 10 July 2010 My Build Thread with pictures here.
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jonny2hats
post Jun 26 2010, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (rotortech @ Jun 26 2010, 05:41 PM) *
Bike is running = good.

Now, get the bike running and see if all four pipes are equally hot. You don't need to measure it, just touch each one quickly. You may notice the difference at idle. If they seem the same at idle go ride until it is warmed up a bit. Run it up in rpm as much as you can. Stop and check the pipes. If 1 & 4 are different than 2 & 3 then you have isolated the problem to the ignition coils. you may be getting ignition that is good enough to idle but is intermittent at higher rpm. At that point it could be a coil, a broken wire or bad spark plug wires.

If the pipes seem equally hot then you could have a carb problem. You need to do some checking to help you see if you are rich or lean. With the bike running can you rev to high rpm cold but not hot? That would indicate that it is too rich. Does it run better or to higher rpm hot. That would indicate that it is too lean. So when running the bike make mental note of any differences between hot and cold operation for idle, mid-range, wide open throttle to high rpm.

Another forum member recently had similar headaches with his bike. He was advised to check the filter and the airbox and found NO FILTER ELEMENT. The PO was a bit negligent there. His bike ran pretty good once he got the filter installed. You may have to inspect the air box for leaks and the filter might be absent or torn up (Too lean) or the filter may be clogged with dirt and leaves (too rich). Don't assume that there is a good filter inside the air box. Take a look.

If the engine is running well but you just can not get it to accelerate beyond 5 or 6K, then you may have a fuel filter problem. In that case you probably also have crap in the bottom of the tank. Time to clean out the tank and replace the fuel filter. This may cause the bike to rev up some but then lean out and falter. It won't be a clean rpm limit each time.


Thanks Rotortech.

I neglected to mention that I have replaced both the air filter element and the fuel filter.

It does start although it does take a second or two of turning the engine over. Once it is running it does seem to idle ok but when holding the revs in a higher range it starts to faulter and then comes a power loss and it then cuts out. Sometimes increasing the revs will pull it though this point but others it just dies. I haven't noted whether it happens when hot or cold or both but i will try your advice in the morning and get back to you.

Something else i have noticed is after revving the bike up and then dropping the revs, it drops below the idle point and then increases back to the idle. Does this indicate that it is running a bit rich?
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rotortech
post Jun 26 2010, 03:38 PM
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Dropping below idle and then coming back up to idle would mean you are rich at idle. Doesn't mean that you are rich at all rpms. You could still be lean at high rpm due to other things. Do you know what main jet size was in the carbs?


--------------------
Read this first then ask questions:
CPR for the FZR

Rotortech
Indianapolis

1994 Yamaha FZR 600 Purchased as project bike Jan 2010
Finished 10 July 2010 My Build Thread with pictures here.
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jonny2hats
post Jun 27 2010, 05:45 PM
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Hi guys

Tried it again today and it seems to be doing this both hot and cold.

The bike will start after a couple of seconds turning it over and giving it a little throttle and then it seems to idle ok. I can rev to a high rpm but if holding it there after a while it just bogs down and then cuts out.

as far as i can tell simply by touch, all 4 headers seem to be equally as hot, although this is just by touch.

Just to recap, I have:

Changed the air filter
Changed the spark plugs
Changed the fuel filter
cleaned the carbs and replaced a torn diaphragm
balanced the carbs
Checked the battery charge(was 12.98v)
Checked the resistance of coils on LT side(2.3 ohms)
Checked the resistance of the coils on HT side(190K ohms (1&4) and 160k ohms (2&3)) - would assume that these should be the same.


I dont know if what size the jets are, i assumed they are production ones.

Are there any test i can do for the CDI or is it just process of elimination?
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rotortech
post Jun 28 2010, 05:22 AM
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I believe that the CDI is working fine. Your next concern will be the charging system. Do you have the stock Voltage Regulator (VR)? Or the late model finned metal housing type? Look under the left tail fairing for this part. The charging system may be causing erratic operation at high rpm. This is a very common problem with this bike. The VR gets fried and takes out other components including the CDI, battery, tach, wiring. Don't let this happen to you. Upgrade it now. Use the search button to find lots of information on this forum about the VR/R upgrade.

You should also plan to take the air box off and do a carb cleaning in the future.


--------------------
Read this first then ask questions:
CPR for the FZR

Rotortech
Indianapolis

1994 Yamaha FZR 600 Purchased as project bike Jan 2010
Finished 10 July 2010 My Build Thread with pictures here.
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jonny2hats
post Jun 28 2010, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (rotortech @ Jun 28 2010, 12:22 PM) *
I believe that the CDI is working fine. Your next concern will be the charging system. Do you have the stock Voltage Regulator (VR)? Or the late model finned metal housing type? Look under the left tail fairing for this part. The charging system may be causing erratic operation at high rpm. This is a very common problem with this bike. The VR gets fried and takes out other components including the CDI, battery, tach, wiring. Don't let this happen to you. Upgrade it now. Use the search button to find lots of information on this forum about the VR/R upgrade.

You should also plan to take the air box off and do a carb cleaning in the future.


I did notice that the VR was pretty hot, I thought this was probably normal because its bolted to the heat sink plate. It is the original one without fins.

Ill have a look into this, thanks
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jonny2hats
post Jun 28 2010, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (rotortech @ Jun 28 2010, 12:22 PM) *
I believe that the CDI is working fine. Your next concern will be the charging system. Do you have the stock Voltage Regulator (VR)? Or the late model finned metal housing type? Look under the left tail fairing for this part. The charging system may be causing erratic operation at high rpm. This is a very common problem with this bike. The VR gets fried and takes out other components including the CDI, battery, tach, wiring. Don't let this happen to you. Upgrade it now. Use the search button to find lots of information on this forum about the VR/R upgrade.

You should also plan to take the air box off and do a carb cleaning in the future.


I did notice that the VR was pretty hot, I thought this was probably normal because its bolted to the heat sink plate. It is the original one without fins.

Ill have a look into this, thanks
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apsolus
post Jun 28 2010, 07:14 PM
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if all else fails, replace the battery, the charging system could be fine but a dead battery is a dead battery laugh.gif my bike did that all the time till i changed it. VR VR VR! Do it! buy urself a battery tender and charge your battery regularly. very good thing for these old bikes


--------------------
have:
88 yamaha fzr 1000
87 honda super magna 700
08 yamaha star 250

had:
02 yamaha vstar 650
89 yamaha fzr 600
02 kawasaki ninja 600
83 yamaha midnight maxim 750
99 suzuki gz 250
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rotortech
post Jun 29 2010, 02:50 AM
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johnny,

Get rid of the old VR now. Here is all the information you should need.
VR information and testing

The old VR will destroy your electrical system. Change it.


--------------------
Read this first then ask questions:
CPR for the FZR

Rotortech
Indianapolis

1994 Yamaha FZR 600 Purchased as project bike Jan 2010
Finished 10 July 2010 My Build Thread with pictures here.
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